NIRODBARAN: Nishikanto asks why at times he is seized with a repugnance for writing poetry. He burned a lot of his works at Santiniketan during such seizures. Here also attacks come occasion- ally and he questions himself, "What is the use of writing after all?" And this hampers his work, he says.
SRI AUROBINDO: These moods come to many people. They are a kind of Tamas (inertia) which should not be indulged in.
NIRODBARAN: Nishikanto says that it would be useful not to write if he could meditate or think of the Divine instead. This he can't do. "Then why not write?" he argues, but the feeling of repugnance conies all the same.
SRI AUROBINDO: It has to be rejected.
Page-386
PURANI: Somebody from Gujarat has written that after you took your first few lessons in Sanskrit your teacher found that you were progressing with extreme rapidity and there was no need of a teacher any more.
SRI AUROBINDO: I don't remember having any teacher in Sanskrit. I think I learnt it by myself. Many languages, in fact, I learnt by myself—German and Italian, for instance. For Bengali, however, I had a teacher.
CHAMPAKLAL: Did you learn Gujarati in Pondicherry?
SRI AUROBINDO: No. I picked it up in Baroda, as I had to read the Maharajah's files.
NIRODBARAN: Nishikanto was asking if you would write an appreciation of his book.
SRI AUROBINDO: For publication?
NIRODBARAN: Yes. I replied that you would never do it. He argued that you had done it for Dilip. I asked: "Where?" And I added, "Sri Aurobindo has only given his opinion poem by poem as he has also done in your case. If Dilip published the opinions, it was his own doing."
SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so. I cannot write a public appreciation for a member of my own Ashram. Tagore has given his appreciation. That should be enough.
PURANI: Jinnah has threatened the Viceroy that if the Congress comes back to power there will be a revolution in India.
SRI AUROBINDO: The Congress, once it has resigned, can't come back to power even if it has a majority.
PURANI: Jinnah says that Gandhi is making a compromise with the Viceroy and will then crush the Muslims and other minorities. He won't tolerate this.
SRI AUROBINDO: I suppose Jinnah means: "Make me a king or-"
PURANI: "I will kick up a row."
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes.
PURANI: Different people have given different solutions regarding this problem. Professor Saha says, "A Constituent
Assembly will succeed." Sikandar Hyat proposes a committee of some seventeen persons.
SRI AUROBINDO: And let them be shut up in a room until they are able to come to a settlement. (Laughter)
EVENING
Professor Naren Das Gupta reviewed Sri Aurobindo's Life Divine in the Hindustan Standard.
SRI AUROBINDO: Who is this Das Gupta?
PURANI: It is Naren Das Gupta of Feni College, in Noakhali,
SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, he was Bejoy's friend.
PURANI: Here, in Pondy?
SRI AUROBINDO: No—when he first came to Calcutta.
PURANI (to Nirodbaran): Have you read the review?
NIRODBARAN: Yes, and Satyendra has also seen it.
SATYENDRA: The reviewer has discovered an important coincidence.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes.
PURANI: What coincidence?
SRI AUROBINDO: The Arya came out just at the beginning of the last World War and The Life Divine at the beginning of the present one.
SATYENDRA (to Nirodbaron)-. How is it that the Hindustan Standard has put the review on the leading page? I thought it was a Socialist paper supporting Subhas Bose.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it is a Leftist paper. But Subhas Bose has a corner in him which has a respect for spiritual things. He is not an ordinary atheistic Socialist.
NIRODBARAN: Nishikanto has bucked up. He says, "After all, Sri Aurobindo pressed me to publish my poems. So whether they sell or not is not my look out." He believes that you gave some Force to Tagore which made Tagore change his mind about his poetry. I also believe this.
SRI AUROBINDO: You mean I put my Force on him? Anybody who has some poetic feeling will appreciate the book.
NIRODBARAN: But did you put your Force on Tagore or not?
SRI AUROBINDO (smiling a little): In a way. Has the book been sent for review? If it has, the monthlies are sure to notice it.
PURANI: Mahadev Desai has advised poor people to wear paper if cloth runs short.
NIRODBARAN: Why wear anything at all?
PURANI: He has got this idea from Gandhi. Once Gandhi put a piece of paper in between the two folds of his loin cloth. People say that paper will be short now.
SRI AUROBINDO: Doesn't matter. Was it not Gandhi's idea once not to wear anything?
NIRODBARAN: In that way, life's problems become very much simplified, and for food one can eat grass like that English barrister.
SRI AUROBINDO: Thus two problems of life are solved. But what about the third: shelter?
PURANI: People can sleep under the stars.
SRI AUROBINDO: Not possible during the monsoon. Even Sannyasis have to seek caves.
SATYENDRA: If one could really simplify life, things would be so much better. Even if as Yogis we accept life, simplification is necessary. If one makes life complex, complexities increase and increase. The Europeans, having accepted life, have increased its complexities enormously.
SRI AUROBINDO: But to what extent to simplify? — that is the question. The Sannyasi's standpoint is to accept only what is necessary. This is understandable. But the Sannyasi does not quite accept life. If you do accept it, how far will you simplify it?
SATYENDRA: If you don't simplify it drastically, you have to accept life as the Europeans do—with complexities multiplying.
SRI AUROBINDO: Not necessarily. The Europeans have accepted life in the wrong way - that is, along with its disorders.
SATYENDRA: Some people in India, no less than in Europe, have wanted to introduce nudity. But it is hardly necessary in India.
NIRODBARAN: All the same, it would be rather comfortable, I think.
SRI AUROBINDO: A French woman went to Germany to study the nudists. When she came back she wrote an article in a paper:
"Les bonheurs de la nudité" ("The Happiness of Nudity"). Blake also wanted to establish nudity as the rule of life. He succeeded only in taking some promenades with his wife in his own garden. (Laughter)
NIRODBARAN: By the way, some people are going to celebrate Bejoy Goswami's birth-centenary at Calcutta.
SATYENDRA: Are there no translations of his works?
NIRODBARAN: I haven't seen any.
SRI AUROBINDO: I have read neither any translation nor his original work. During his time, there was quite a strong cult of him.
NIRODBARAN: Brahmo Samaj?
SRI AUROBINDO: No. He was Brahmo only at the beginning, The three nationalist leaders of the day were his disciples-the first, I forgot his name, started the nationalist university, the second was Bipin Pal and the third Monoranjan Guha Thakurtha. It is said that the nationalist revolutionary movement was the outcome of his own movement.
NIRODBARAN: How?
SRI AUROBINDO: Because he used to stress work, action! ;
NIRODBARAN: The Calcutta people, the organisers of the celebration, want to know where in your writings you have referred to him. I read in one book your saying that the work begun Ramakrishna, Vivekananda and Bejoy Goswami hasn't been finished. Jayantilal was telling me that you have said somewhere that Goswami couldn't give to others what he had received.
SRI AUROBINDO: Where have I said that?
NIRODBARAN: Jayantilal thinks it is in a book by Barin.
SRI AUROBINDO: The report is unreliable.
SATYENDRA: Somebody here was saying that a friend of his saw Goswami's presence standing behind a person.
SRI AUROBINDO: Goswami was a very powerful man.
NIRODBARAN: I have read that his soul was thrice brought back to life by the Brahmachari of Baradi.
SATYENDRA: You mean Lokanath?
NIRODBARAN: Yes.
SATYENDRA: Jayantilal told me that Lokanath got his realisation at the age of eighty, but that his Guru had no realisation, for which Lokanath was very sorry.
NIRODBARAN: Yes. Lokanath's Guru was Jnanamargi. Lokanath used to say, "You, my Guru, are still bound while I your disciple am free. I feel very sad about it." This Lokanath seems to have travelled to Sumeru.
SATYENDRA: Yes, he wanted to go to heaven like Yudhishthir,
Page-390
SRI AUROBINDO: Did he believe that he could go to heaven
bodily?
NIRODBARAN:
It looks like it. And so with a friend he started
along the Himalayas and, crossing them, came wandering to
Sumeru where they met some people only half a yard tall who
lived on vegetable roots growing beneath the snows. I believe
they were Eskimos.
SRI AUROBINDO: Eskimos? But Eskimos eat fish. Who has written all this?
PURANI: Have you read that book of poems by Udar's friend,
Armando Menezes?
SRI AUROBINDO:
I have glanced through it. He has a mastery
over the language and technique, but the work still seems to be
derivative except in a few places.
NIRODBARAN:
Do you mean that he has no inspiration?
SRI AUROBINDO: No. He has inspiration and he has power
too. Perhaps the word "derivative" is wrong. For it would mean
imitation, though there is an influence of Shelley. What then shall I
call his work? Perhaps I may say it is not authentic yet. It has
everything else short of this, and he may achieve something.
PURANI: He is afraid to come here lest he shouldn't be able to
go back.
SRI AUROBINDO:
He's afraid like Nandalal Bose?
PURANI: Yes. He says he has a family and if he takes up poetry
here and doesn't go back - (Laughter)
SRI AUROBINDO: He is one of the best among Indians who are
writing in English. There is another from your part of the country.
PURANI: Jehangir Vakil?
SRI AUROBINDO:
Yes. But he didn't arrive at anything.
NIRODBARAN: Armando Menezes' mother tongue, as well as
Amal's, is practically English.
SRI AUROBINDO:
That is not everything, nor does it count for
much. Many Englishmen can't write poetry. The point is that
Indians writing in English must do something extraordinary to be reorgnised while that is not so for an Englishman.
Page
391
PURANI:
Anilbaran was asking if you would send your blessings
to the centenary celebration of Bejoy Goswami's birth.
SRI AUROBINDO: I don't send any blessings publicly. Ask him
to send his on his own behalf.
PURANI:
He asks if he can write to them that you have read
their letter.
SRI AUROBINDO: What is the use?
NIRODBARAN: Somebody has written a letter to Anilbaran, in
which he has put many metaphysical questions to you. (Nirodbaran
read out the letter but nobody could make head or tail of the questions.)
SRI AUROBINDO: Let Anilbaran have the pleasure of answering them.
The radio news said that Germany had built 2,000 pocket battleships, We
were cutting jokes on that unbelievable figure.
SRI AUROBINDO: The commentator should have said a 2,000-
pocket battleship—a battleship with 2,000 pockets, whatever that
might mean. One battleship takes one and a half to two years to
build. How could Germany have built 2,000?
NIRODBARAN
(after a while): I understand Dilip sent you some
extracts from Huxley's book After Many a Summer. He wants to
know how you found them. Anilkumar says that he doesn't find
anything there to indicate that Huxley has had any spiritual experience or has written from such experience. Dilip maintains that he
must have done some sadhana in order to be able to write like that.
SRI AUROBINDO (after some silence): All I can say is that he
has thought about the problem. And he himself says that experience
is necessary. How can you say from his writings whether he has had
any experience or not? You know what my uncle Krishna Kumar
Mitra said? When The Synthesis of Yoga in the Arya came out, he
said that it was all philosophy; there was nothing of Yoga in it.
NIRODBARAN:
Did he do any Yoga?
SRI AUROBINDO:
Yes, he had some experiences in jail.
NIRODBARAN:
P wants to know how you found the criticism
of his recent book.
SRI AUROBINDO: How can I say anything without reading the
book? But does the critic know anything about the Veda on which there is an article in P's book?
PURANI: No, and he says that in the criticism. These people
hold the socialistic theory in literature. The style and the subject of
the book must be approachable by the mass. Kalelkar has developed
a racy style. Munshi's style also is very good.
NIRODBARAN: Modern writers are more bent on perfecting style.
SRI AUROBINDO:
That is because they have nothing to say.
And what is queer, especially about the modern poets, is that they
talk of writing in a popular style and about popular literature but they
take care to see that their own writings may not be understandable to the people. And their popular style makes a muddle
when they begin to write about serious things.
NIRODBARAN: Basanta Chatterji has left Anilbaran and has
now taken up his pen against you. He has written an article, "The
Veda and Sri Aurobindo", in which he says that like Westerners you have not accepted the reality of the gods. You have interpreted Agni : as representing Tapa Shakti, etc.
SRI AUROBINDO:
If I have spoken of Agni as representing Tapa Shakti, it doesn't mean that he is not a god. If Saraswati is represented as a symbol of learning, does it mean she is not a goddess? Where have I said that the Vedic gods are unreal?
PURANI: Sri Aurobindo has nowhere said that; on the contrary,
he has spoken of them as personalities. Chatterji hasn't read anything. In The Life Divine itself there is a passage on this point. (Purani
read out the passage.)
PURANI: Anilbaran was asking if a contradiction of Basanta
Chatterji could be written, pointing out his mistake or his ignorance.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, that can be done.
SATYENDRA: Who is this man?
SRI AUROBINDO: He is Anilbaran's pet controversialist.
(Laughter)
SATYENDRA: He hasn't read your Hymns of the Atris probably.
There you have distinctly spoken about the Vedic gods.
Page-393
PURANI: In The Life Divine's chapter on the Overmind, too.
SATYENDRA: He can be referred to that chapter.
PURANI: Better not refer him to it. He will say, "Now what is
this Overmind?"
NIRODBARAN: He is sure to misunderstand it.
SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know what he will not misunderstand.
NIRODBARAN: He says the Gita is Sri Aurobindo's favourite
book. But the Gita also speaks of the gods.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Not only the Gita, but also Sri Aurobindo
speaks of them. (Laughter)
After the sponging Sri Aurobindo asked for the Hymns of the Atris. He
said he had forgotten what he had written there and wanted to verify
Satyendra's reference.
NIRODBARAN: Your critic also says that you have criticised
Sayana's polytheistic interpretation of the Vedas.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Where have I done so?
NIRODBARAN: He doesn't say.
PURANI: We find that you have translated most of the Suktas of
the Swetashwatara Upanishad.
SRI AUROBINDO: I translated this Upanishad long ago and the
book came out from somewhere. I don't remember who published
it, but I know that the publisher didn't even take my permission, I
translated the Swetashwatara Upanishad while I was in Bengal. The
manuscript is still with me.
SRI AUROBINDO (before Purani and Satyendra came in): I have
read the Hymns. There I have distinctly said that the Vedic gods are
no mere imageries but realities. I don't understand where this
Basanta Chatterji found me denying them.
NIRODBARAN: Satyendra has also shown me what you have
written.
SRI AUROBINDO: I don't remember if I have written anything
against Sayana in my introduction to The Secret of the Veda. I have to
ask Purani.
When Purani came in, Sri Aurobindo asked him the question.
Page--394
PURANI: I don't think you have written anything against
Sayana's polytheism. However, I'll look up the introduction.
SRI AUROBINDO: In the Hymns I have clearly held the gods to
be realities and I have marked two or three passages saying so.
PURANI: Going back to Armando Menezes and his work, do
you know that Harin told Armando that his poetry has a mystic
element? Armando replied that he wasn't aware of it.
SRI AUROBINDO: What is meant by "mystic"? If you mean
something beyond the external material existence, then there are
several mystic passages in his poems.
NIRODBARAN: Dilip asks whether Francis Thompson can be
called a great poet.
SRI AUROBINDO: Here, again, we must ask: what is meant by
"great"? At any rate, Thompson has written one great poem, "The
Hound of Heaven", and he who writes a great poem is necessarily
great.
NIRODBARAN: Dilip does admit that he has written a great
poem.
SRI AUROBINDO:
But he holds, I suppose, that the writer is still
a small poet?
NIRODBARAN: No. What he wants to ascertain is whether by
writing a single great poem one becomes a great poet. In that case
Oscar Wilde and Chesterton are also great because they have each
written a great poem.
SRI AUROBINDO:
Thompson's poem is great in a peculiar
way. Of course, if you take the mass of his work into account
you may say he is not great. "Greatness" too can be variously
defined.
NIRODBARAN:
I can only say that poets like Shakespeare are
great. Also Wordsworth and Shelley can be called great poets.
PURANI: Through "The Hound of Heaven" Thompson has
expressed a whole life-experience and has achieved the summit of
art while doing so. Considering these two points I think he must be
called great.
SRI AUROBINDO: I may add that he has expressed a whole life-experience not only in an individual sense but also in a universal
one. Whoever goes through the spiritual life experiences what he
has expressed. And yet can one jump to an absolute assertion from
single poems? As I said, greatness can be variously defined. Look at
the French poet Villon. He is called great. If you take his poems one
Page-395
by one he is equal in greatness to any other poet. But if you take his
work in a mass you can't justify his greatness.
Petrarch has written only sonnets and these too on merely one
subject. And yet he is considered a great poet and given a place next
to Dante. Simonides has not a single surviving complete poem; he is
known only by his fragments. But he is ranked as a great poet,
second only to Pindar who is the greatest Greek lyricist. Nor has
Pindar himself written very much. Sappho has come down to us in
only one complete poem: the rest of her is in mere snatches. Still,
she is hailed as a great poet. So there can be no fixed standard by
which one can judge the greatness of a poet.
As to Thompson and Wilde and Chesterton, I believe "The
Hound of Heaven" is greater than any poem by the last two.
PURANI: I have read The Secret of the Veda. There is no pronouncement against Sayana. I don't know if Nolini's introduction
to his own madhhuchanda has any reference to him. (Sri Aurobindo
read the introduction.)
Abhay has come; he had to go to Hyderabad and through the
intercession of Sir Akbar managed to obtain the release of two local
Arya Samaj prisoners. The Nizam by his reserve power refused to
release them as he feared that they, being local people, might
start trouble again. Sir Akbar told him through his secretary that if
he didn't release them the people would again start the agitation and
Sir Akbar shouldn't be held responsible. The Nizam, had to give way.
NIRODBARAN: What about the Nizam's reforms? When do
they come into operation?
PURANI: I don't know. He seems to be thinking of an independent kingdom and of being a king like the king of England.
SRI AUROBINDO: He wants to include Berar also—it seems
very easy!
PURANI: He has plans of conquering India too after the British
have left.
SRI AUROBINDO: But he seems to have said that the native
states wouldn't exist for long if India got Dominion Status. In any
case their existence is now at an end. He is a man who has moods; so
he may say different things in different moods.
PURANI (showing a book): Abhay
has given this Vedic concordance to us. A man is bringing out the Vedas at a very cheap rate — five
rupees for the three Vedas.
SRI AUROBINDO: We should get a copy then.
PURANI: He will send it, I think.
SRI AUROBINDO: To me or to the library?
PURANI: To you.
SRI AUROBINDO: Then it won't go to the library.
(Laughter)
PURANI: The library doesn't need it. Who will read such books?
Those who are interested have copies—like Vedavrata and myself.
NIRODBARAN:
Why? We all may read it some day.
SRI AUROBINDO: After the supramental?
NIRODBARAN:
Yes.
SATYENDRA: A remote chance.
NIRODBARAN: Everything is remote. The divine realisation is no less so.
SATYENDRA: I am not concerned with these things or what will
happen in the next life.
NIRODBARAN: I am not talking of the next life.
SATYENDRA: If the sun burns out after millions of years as
scientists say, it doesn't interest me. I am concerned with this
life.
SRI AUROBINDO: The stars may collide. The astronomers are
always predicting that.
NIRODBARAN: You seem to mean that the divine realisation is
quite possible in this life.
PURANI: Everything is possible.
NIRODBARAN:
Then why not the supermind?
SRI AUROBINDO: You mean you are within reach of the
Divine?
Satyendra couldn't give an answer and began to smile.
PURANI: I heard of a chhaya-jyotish (shadow-astrologer) who by
measuring the shadow of a person and then correlating the signs, can
exactly predict the future. A friend of mine had the experience of
such a prediction.
SRI AUROBINDO: The bhrigu-jyotish also, by studying the lines
of the hands, can predict things. The pattern of the lines of the
thumb seem to indicate the individuality of persons and no two
Page-397
patterns are alike. I showed my hand twice or thrice but the readings
about the future didn't come true.
NIRODBARAN
(after a lull): Tagore will present a copy of his
entire works to the Ashram. Sisir Mitra told him that since he gets a
copy of every new book of yours, he should also present us with his
own books.
SRI AUROBINDO: Does he get my books?
NIRODBARAN: Yes, the Arya Publishing House sends them to
him.
PURANI: It is a matter
of common courtesy to return the compliment.
SRI AUROBINDO: You can't expect uncommon people to act
in the common way.
PURANI : Some astrologers have said
that Gandhi will see India
realise her freedom during his lifetime.
SRI AUROBINDO: That is quite possible. If by freedom is meant
Dominion Status, India can get it tomorrow if Jinnah comes round.
NIRODBARAN: It seems Gandhi is ready to accept Dominion
Status.
SRI AUROBINDO: Of course. That is common sense. If after
Dominion Status you can secede from the British Government at
any time and thus get without fighting what you want, what is the
sense of fighting now? Only the defence question and British interests will remain. After a few years, when these problems have been
solved, you can get rid of the British Government.
NIRODBARAN: As Ireland did?
PURANI: Yes. See how England can't force Ireland to enter the
war. The Irish are quite independent, though so near to England.
SRI AUROBINDO: Only, there is a Northern Ireland there.
That is due to people—the Southerners—who didn't want to join
the British Empire. Otherwise the British Government would have
been willing to concede full Dominion Status to Ireland as one
whole. In India, if Jinnah had had the good sense to come to an
agreement with the Congress, the British Government would have
granted Dominion Status. The real problem then would have been
after Dominion Status, what?
NIRODBARAN: Why?
SRI AUROBINDO: There would have been a fight between the
communities, and also the extreme Socialists would have had to be
fought.
Page-398
EVENING
26 JANUARY 1940
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27 JANUARY 1940
EVENING
28 JANUARY 1940